tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7615782020735321095.post5990024630906979194..comments2024-03-22T10:01:23.989+00:00Comments on Wargaming for Grown-ups: FoG-R start to the New YearTrebianhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02221916804339000102noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7615782020735321095.post-40756973015638813712015-01-10T09:57:00.783+00:002015-01-10T09:57:00.783+00:00I'm not sure that either side had the simpler ...I'm not sure that either side had the simpler uniforms. All the Huguenot finery is collected in the Landsknechts, whilst the Spanish bits and pieces are more widely spread.Trebianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02221916804339000102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7615782020735321095.post-91080541742381817482015-01-09T21:32:50.151+00:002015-01-09T21:32:50.151+00:00Nice game Graham. I enjoyed trotting the Ritters o...Nice game Graham. I enjoyed trotting the Ritters out again, even if they do insist on caracoling at the first sound of a Hurdy Gurdy. I am reminded as ever that the army with the Simplest Uniform wins :O)<br /><br />I'm still of the opinion that Andy Callan's hair roller rules take a lot of beating.<br /><br />Regards, ChrisChris Kemphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15784847480097649252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7615782020735321095.post-26559388787882311252015-01-07T20:35:05.232+00:002015-01-07T20:35:05.232+00:00Of the two you have on your to do list, I'd go...Of the two you have on your to do list, I'd go with FoG-R over P&S. The latter from what I have observed allows a number of absurdities especially on how pike & shotte regiments work.<br /><br />FoG-R works hard to make historical things happen. If you know the period when you read the rules you should be able to see why certain things are done. the rule i complained about re-charging targets is perfectly valid as it stops you clipping the outside of an infantry unit just to kill the muskets.<br /><br />As I said, FoG-R has a lot of rules, and you probably would find it easiest to learn from an existing practitioner (as do a lot of rules). Once you get going it has a certain logic to it.Trebianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02221916804339000102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7615782020735321095.post-30780291137482608152015-01-07T13:23:16.778+00:002015-01-07T13:23:16.778+00:00 I found the effort of will needed to get your he... I found the effort of will needed to get your head around FOG too much I suppose if you played nothing else for 6 months- and possibly gave up sleeping...<br /> Now in theory with FOG-R I should be better off as I know 17th century warfare pretty well and am not entirely ignorant of the 16th century either. However I find that with many gamesey rule sets that period knowledge is actually detrimental- DBR being the worst in this respect.<br /> Currently I have FOG-R and Pike and shotte to try out. Fog-R is far more difficult to actually read. I find my 17th century drill manuls easier to grasp.Big Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17235478427317774609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7615782020735321095.post-21988117791623015792015-01-06T20:53:30.295+00:002015-01-06T20:53:30.295+00:00I admit to being baffled. But I also admit to it b...I admit to being baffled. But I also admit to it being my fault. In addition there is a strong random element and if it goes against you then it can be unforgiving. The good players can allow for that. I just don't fall into that category at the moment.<br /><br />I wpould like to play more FoG-R, in a more regular fashion, so I can really get to grips with them. I think the will give a rewarding experience. On the other hand, if they're the type of rules you don't like, then you won't like them. But I could say that about a lot of things.Trebianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02221916804339000102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7615782020735321095.post-39407852990788667922015-01-06T20:47:51.945+00:002015-01-06T20:47:51.945+00:00As I said above I didn't like FoG, but I like ...As I said above I didn't like FoG, but I like FoG-R. It does a very good job of simulating key bits of renaissance warfare, but you have to know what you are doing. The rules are well written to squeeze out all sorts of cheesiness and make units perform as they did historically. However, if you don't know the system you will come unstuck.<br /><br />Comparing them to other generic renaissance rule sets I prefer them to George Gush's WRG rules, Tercio and DBR. They're also better than Neil Thomas' renaissance rules which really let his overall body of work down badly.Trebianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02221916804339000102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7615782020735321095.post-710293749250053022015-01-06T20:44:44.555+00:002015-01-06T20:44:44.555+00:00I know what I did wrong, - I wrote as much up top....I know what I did wrong, - I wrote as much up top. My issue isn't with the rules, but my understanding of them. As I said "A little learning is a dangerous thing"Trebianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02221916804339000102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7615782020735321095.post-48406995280754940952015-01-06T20:43:37.205+00:002015-01-06T20:43:37.205+00:00I understand the sequence better. It does seem to ...I understand the sequence better. It does seem to favour a unit "standing" or at least receiving the charge, but no doubt looking at the turn sequence fully will bring up some compensating factor.Trebianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02221916804339000102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7615782020735321095.post-86457483853311540532015-01-06T14:00:13.499+00:002015-01-06T14:00:13.499+00:00Ignore my contributions, then, Big Andy ... FoGR i...Ignore my contributions, then, Big Andy ... FoGR is simpler than FoG Ancients and has had a lot of the difficulties and 'game' taken out (in favour of period) . I tried to explain in clear (rules) terms where Treb was making it sound more baffling than it was (like failing to note that the cavalry rallied because they rallied by rolling more than 8 on 2 dice - not because they were somehow radio-controlled) ...<br /><br />Unfortunately it is often the case that discussing something which has been misrepresented does then lead to the whole issue seeming much more complex than it was.<br /><br />Sorry for that<br /><br />PhilSoA Shows Northhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14181076390844159417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7615782020735321095.post-20394957419387710742015-01-06T09:01:50.574+00:002015-01-06T09:01:50.574+00:00Strewth! There has to be an easier way to run a w...Strewth! There has to be an easier way to run a wargame ! <br /> I have FOGR but the turgid jargon puts me off- as it did with FOG ancients - at least I played that a bit. However when "game" ovecomes period I bow out.<br /> The game and more importantly the resulting dicussion here has done nothing to endear me to FOGRBig Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17235478427317774609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7615782020735321095.post-5423087683784425542015-01-05T21:08:08.174+00:002015-01-05T21:08:08.174+00:00Apologies if accusing you of cheesiness - I don...Apologies if accusing you of cheesiness - I don't think you were being cheesy ... I think you assumed that only the most bonkers of Gendarmes would charge a tercio when he had crossed the battlefield to fight a cavalry battle ...<br /><br />However, a tercio did walk into your path and you did not adjust to avoid it before declaring the charge.<br /><br />The spirit of FoG is simply to have a line drawn between picking and choosing your targets or just shouting tallyho! and clattering what is in front of you. For FoG it is mostly how big you are ... (so that, in a charge, everybody fights the enemy if they can) ... Mostly I think it is a good rule but it may be that it would work better with some period specific modifiers.<br /><br />Then again, I don't know the period as well as you do ...<br /><br />PhilSoA Shows Northhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14181076390844159417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7615782020735321095.post-63094408343860134752015-01-05T20:59:01.631+00:002015-01-05T20:59:01.631+00:00Hopefully not too boring to add, on the 'good ...Hopefully not too boring to add, on the 'good brakes' that FoG has a joint phase (in which rallying takes place) but movement is in IGO/UGO turns. So if you rally in the joint phase at the end of your opponent's turn (which is mostly random ... when things happen, when you pass a 50/50 test) , the rallying seems very quick as you get to go again in your turn (which is now) ... if you happen to rally at the end of your own turn it seems to take longer (as you hang around throughout your opponent's new turn before you get to go again in your own) ... In part this is just the clunkiness we have all come to accept as preferable to the old argy-bargy we used to have with simultaneous movement (when they would likely have had to miss a turn physically to reorganise) ...<br /><br />Make sense?<br /><br />PhilSoA Shows Northhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14181076390844159417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7615782020735321095.post-31358587477559115372015-01-05T20:50:58.101+00:002015-01-05T20:50:58.101+00:00Well, I did say at the start of the blog that what...Well, I did say at the start of the blog that what happened was my fault, & I should have listened to my commander.<br /><br />I like the rule that says you have to charge what's in front of you where it stops you targeting, for example, the shot wings of a unit, avoiding those pesky pikes. I don't think that's what was happening here, and I refute the charge of cheesiness. I think it is quite reasonable to go for the horse and avoid the tercio. The tercio's role is to support the horse with fire, - which it did admirably.<br /><br />I apologise for one inaccuracy. I missed Chris rallying on the CMT. I thought it was just declared he could stop as he had lost contact with the fleeing gendarmes. That makes more sense.Trebianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02221916804339000102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7615782020735321095.post-54390725106160811522015-01-05T20:45:41.284+00:002015-01-05T20:45:41.284+00:00I tried FoG and didn't really like it or get o...I tried FoG and didn't really like it or get on with it. The evidence of this post to the contrary I have quite a lot of time for FoG-R. It's a pretty good stab at getting pike and shot wargaming right.<br /><br />Under other circumstances I might well invest in it and take the time to learn it properly, but at the moment, I think not. Too much else on.Trebianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02221916804339000102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7615782020735321095.post-30781022514458206702015-01-04T22:06:08.666+00:002015-01-04T22:06:08.666+00:00FoG and FoG-R are easy games ... they get complica...FoG and FoG-R are easy games ... they get complicated when players try old fashioned wargamerly ways of avoiding doing the obvious and find they can't. The two points of grievance here ... thr gendarmes en haye road across the battlefield into the path of a tercio (at a smaller unit of enemy horse but also into the path of a tercio) ... the gendarmes had the opportunity of reducing the length of their line (so avoiding clattering into the tercio as well as their chosen target) but chose not to ... only to discover that a swerve around the tercio was not permitted as it would mean not all those eager noblemen determined to be en haye would then be able to fight someone (which presumably they would have wanted to do hence their desire to be en haye) ... I have no problem with this (if you don't want to charge them don't have your guys ride straight at them) ...<br /><br />As for the pursuing cavalry ... they passed a 'rally from pursuit' (complex move) test at the end of their first pursuit phase (so yes, they did have good brakes) ... <br /><br />It enabled them to charge the reiters as you had failed to predict how badly your charge would do and had left your supporting unit flank-on and in the path of pursuers should your gendarmes end up broken (more like 's**t happens' than 'WTF') ...<br /><br />OK ... the attack was clumsy and mistimed ... that wasn't the fault of the rules ... That the rules didn't allow cheesey swerves seems an advantage in most circumstances ... (and when you had mistimed the moves no-one actually obliged you to charge ...) ...<br /><br />As it happen you very nearly pulled it off with a lucky impact round ... but balanced your high rolls with unlucky rolls in the melee phase ... lost a lot of troops and broke more quickly than would usually be the case.<br /><br />Overall I thought the game went quite well and the rules did their job pretty much ... <br /><br />PhilSoA Shows Northhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14181076390844159417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7615782020735321095.post-45261292790122516392015-01-04T20:00:59.023+00:002015-01-04T20:00:59.023+00:00Excellent BatRep but if FOG-R is ANYTHING like FOG...Excellent BatRep but if FOG-R is ANYTHING like FOG-Ancients, I would throw in the towel. We tried for a long time to come to grips with FOG and simply never could. The whole process (and there are many) always seemed too much like work.<br /><br />From your photos, I do enjoy seeing the tactical differences of Dutch vs Spanish deployments on the table. Very cool!<br /><br />To stop mid pursuit and target another victim? Your gendarmes must have good brakes!Jonathan Freitaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07862373894196924886noreply@blogger.com